Comments on: Geriatrics, Sexual Roles, and Agriculture http://mu.ranter.net I miss my frames. Mon, 02 Jan 2012 07:46:01 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=abc hourly 1 By: countercheck http://mu.ranter.net/design-theory/food-basis/geriatrics-sexual-roles-and-agriculture/comment-page-1#comment-3222 countercheck Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:02:12 +0000 http://mu.ranter.net/design-theory/food-basis/geriatrics-sexual-roles-and-agriculture#comment-3222 You're also ignore the other major cottage industry women were involved in: textiles. There's a reason the female line is known as the distaff. While they might have been less productive agriculturally, they spent a LOT of time working with drop spindles. You’re also ignore the other major cottage industry women were involved in: textiles. There’s a reason the female line is known as the distaff. While they might have been less productive agriculturally, they spent a LOT of time working with drop spindles.

]]> By: drs http://mu.ranter.net/design-theory/food-basis/geriatrics-sexual-roles-and-agriculture/comment-page-1#comment-3198 drs Mon, 14 Nov 2011 23:14:57 +0000 http://mu.ranter.net/design-theory/food-basis/geriatrics-sexual-roles-and-agriculture#comment-3198 An essay like this needs simplification to be practical but one can simplify too far; the role of women isn't that straightforward. Not just the Celts: Germanic tribes seem to have been freer for women before Christianity hit them, and they were already Iron Age. Etruscan art suggests more female equality. Spartan women had more freedom than Athenian ones -- for having a goddess 'patron', Athens was actually rather misogynist. Role of Roman women changed over time. Egyptian women seem to have had legal equality, apart from high office, owning land, bringing lawsuits, and serving as lower officials, and this is a society that lasted 3000 years. Meanwhile Babylonian and Assyrian law codes are harsher. Also I rather doubt the classification of women peasants as unproductive. There's very likely to be social expectations of gender roles, women raising kids and doing jobs consistent with watching kids (textiles) and having only defensive if any military role, but how rigid those roles are for ornery females is a cultural variable. Some cultures may legally enforce chatteldom, others may just frown a lot at a woman taking male roles. Even in medieval Europe, women seem to have had more freedom to buck the system than in early Victorian times, when roles were codified. Other societies have had ways to be considered a member of the opposite gender. You don't get a modern Western society, but you don't get stereotypical medieval either. An essay like this needs simplification to be practical but one can simplify too far; the role of women isn’t that straightforward. Not just the Celts: Germanic tribes seem to have been freer for women before Christianity hit them, and they were already Iron Age. Etruscan art suggests more female equality. Spartan women had more freedom than Athenian ones — for having a goddess ‘patron’, Athens was actually rather misogynist. Role of Roman women changed over time. Egyptian women seem to have had legal equality, apart from high office, owning land, bringing lawsuits, and serving as lower officials, and this is a society that lasted 3000 years. Meanwhile Babylonian and Assyrian law codes are harsher.

Also I rather doubt the classification of women peasants as unproductive.

There’s very likely to be social expectations of gender roles, women raising kids and doing jobs consistent with watching kids (textiles) and having only defensive if any military role, but how rigid those roles are for ornery females is a cultural variable. Some cultures may legally enforce chatteldom, others may just frown a lot at a woman taking male roles. Even in medieval Europe, women seem to have had more freedom to buck the system than in early Victorian times, when roles were codified. Other societies have had ways to be considered a member of the opposite gender. You don’t get a modern Western society, but you don’t get stereotypical medieval either.

]]> By: Joshua http://mu.ranter.net/design-theory/food-basis/geriatrics-sexual-roles-and-agriculture/comment-page-1#comment-634 Joshua Sat, 28 Aug 2010 22:21:59 +0000 http://mu.ranter.net/design-theory/food-basis/geriatrics-sexual-roles-and-agriculture#comment-634 This is going to make me go back through my Celtic history books. Women being relegated to a "lesser" position wasn't necessarily part of the way life was, but was also a cultural choice. Celtic societies had maternal worship, so while in the peasant caste (and there was a caste system for the traditional Celts) women still probably did a lot of child-bearing, they were exalted for it rather than viewed as dependent. At the same time, the Celts themselves were making technological advancements past the Romans in both metal and chariot engineering, even if they weren't making any advancements in military organization. Women in Celtic societies were also leaders (Scottish law held over a rite of succession for a long time that the throne may be passed for one generation to the Mother's side of the family to avoid giving it to a weak son, an incident involving this formed the basis for MacBeth--in reality, MacBeth was the good guy), scholars, doctors, and one of the main points I must check in my history books now are if they were fighters as well. Though Celtic society is primarily pre-medieval with it having been Romanized and Normanized by the time the Middle Ages came around, a cultural base to come from for designers to move forward with is most likely more useful to look in to than trying to take our current cultural perceptions and impress them backwards. For designers wanting a more equal society along the lines of the sexes, ancient Celtic society is probably a good starting point for viewing how an agrarian society lives. The assumptions of what they'd do with middle age farming technology can be made afterwards. This is going to make me go back through my Celtic history books. Women being relegated to a “lesser” position wasn’t necessarily part of the way life was, but was also a cultural choice. Celtic societies had maternal worship, so while in the peasant caste (and there was a caste system for the traditional Celts) women still probably did a lot of child-bearing, they were exalted for it rather than viewed as dependent. At the same time, the Celts themselves were making technological advancements past the Romans in both metal and chariot engineering, even if they weren’t making any advancements in military organization. Women in Celtic societies were also leaders (Scottish law held over a rite of succession for a long time that the throne may be passed for one generation to the Mother’s side of the family to avoid giving it to a weak son, an incident involving this formed the basis for MacBeth–in reality, MacBeth was the good guy), scholars, doctors, and one of the main points I must check in my history books now are if they were fighters as well. Though Celtic society is primarily pre-medieval with it having been Romanized and Normanized by the time the Middle Ages came around, a cultural base to come from for designers to move forward with is most likely more useful to look in to than trying to take our current cultural perceptions and impress them backwards. For designers wanting a more equal society along the lines of the sexes, ancient Celtic society is probably a good starting point for viewing how an agrarian society lives. The assumptions of what they’d do with middle age farming technology can be made afterwards.

]]> By: Brett http://mu.ranter.net/design-theory/food-basis/geriatrics-sexual-roles-and-agriculture/comment-page-1#comment-483 Brett Thu, 10 Jun 2010 01:01:49 +0000 http://mu.ranter.net/design-theory/food-basis/geriatrics-sexual-roles-and-agriculture#comment-483 <blockquote> If women have the same physical potential as men, this means that the peasant wife can now be very productive during the planting and harvest… not as productive as the man, since some of her time will still be spent trying to deliver babies, but say about 80% or so. Ths raises the female peasant from the role of "dependent breeder" to an important part of the agrarian community. This means that there is less waste and overhead for the peasantry, resulting in a higher surplus yield, which means you have more people with free time. </blockquote> This would have interesting effects along with the magic and/or technology greatly reducing infant and childhood mortality. You'd probably get even more productivity out of women, although you'd likely also get a rise in various ways of eliminating excess births (like contraception, abortion, and infanticide). Combine the above two with reasonably reliable magical contraception, and you'd end up with a very interesting looking medieval society. It would likely be an older one, as well, simply because children would be less common, and there would be more old people due to the significantly less early childhood mortality (which was the real reason you generally see statistics like "medieval people had a life expectancy of 30 years". It's not that they dropped dead at 30 - rather, infant mortality was very high, but if you survived your childhood you'd likely live into your 50s and 60s barring disease, injury, or war).

If women have the same physical potential as men, this means that the peasant wife can now be very productive during the planting and harvest… not as productive as the man, since some of her time will still be spent trying to deliver babies, but say about 80% or so. Ths raises the female peasant from the role of “dependent breeder” to an important part of the agrarian community. This means that there is less waste and overhead for the peasantry, resulting in a higher surplus yield, which means you have more people with free time.

This would have interesting effects along with the magic and/or technology greatly reducing infant and childhood mortality. You’d probably get even more productivity out of women, although you’d likely also get a rise in various ways of eliminating excess births (like contraception, abortion, and infanticide).

Combine the above two with reasonably reliable magical contraception, and you’d end up with a very interesting looking medieval society. It would likely be an older one, as well, simply because children would be less common, and there would be more old people due to the significantly less early childhood mortality (which was the real reason you generally see statistics like “medieval people had a life expectancy of 30 years”. It’s not that they dropped dead at 30 – rather, infant mortality was very high, but if you survived your childhood you’d likely live into your 50s and 60s barring disease, injury, or war).

]]> By: Dr Shad http://mu.ranter.net/design-theory/food-basis/geriatrics-sexual-roles-and-agriculture/comment-page-1#comment-88 Dr Shad Thu, 04 Jun 2009 21:11:21 +0000 http://mu.ranter.net/design-theory/food-basis/geriatrics-sexual-roles-and-agriculture#comment-88 Are you claiming that there were no armies of bikini clad female ninja warriors who would only sleep with a man who could first defeat them in single combat? Dude, you have totally ruined my favorite fantasy! Now what will I rub one off to? Are you claiming that there were no armies of bikini clad female ninja warriors who would only sleep with a man who could first defeat them in single combat? Dude, you have totally ruined my favorite fantasy! Now what will I rub one off to?

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