As I have received so much commentary on the last update, I’m going to just post the relevant feedback here… if you are confused about any of this crap, please refer to the 6/23 rant.


Forum post by Wi, who likes being mentioned on the page…

Wi’s guide to the tuskernubalalalala vault
by Wi  posted 6/26/00 12:06:51 AM

I tried to be nice the first couple days i spent in the Black Spawn Den… but there are far too many assholes it seems…

at first, i would only drain a tusker if i found it first, and try to finish it off on my own… but it never works, if you want a typical scenario, mu says it all in the latest rant

you cast fire vuln IV on mr tusker
AZZHOLIO wobf’s mr tusker
AZZHOLIO tells you "thanks faggot"

so i changed my ways quickly, and i get about 50k+ in the time it takes a level V to wear out

first off, treat every person in the place as an asshole of magnitude equal to the damage they can do, unless proven otherwise…

drain mages are supreme assholes, followed by high level hybrid archers, then high level melee, and at the bottom, the poor n00b that took the wrong portal.

if you see a tusker, apply this formula:
%health remaining x assholeness…
if you come up with a big number, start spamming the drain health key….

otherwise, be nice…
it works great wonders later on… i steal away all the kills from drain mages cause i hate them with an eveil unbridled passion, and because I CAN. thanks to my trusty T3, those mages can kiss my ass. but when i see a level 20 melee with impen II, bludgeon bane I on his shield carrying a superior atlan axe with no fire sone, and the tusker is at 100% health and staying that way… the support mage in me comes out 🙂 (yes i really have seen this, the guy must have had 300 meleeD or something, cause he was actually living) i usually peg the tusker with an Imperil V… maybe an axe buff for the poor guy… and the only drain i’ll hit it with is for stamina.

This almost always comes out good for me, the melee will hang around for a while, i’ll help him kill te tuskers, he’ll finish them off when i drain them, taking turns, leveling, and altogether enjoying the game… and sometimes they just say "thx d00d, c4n u sumun a pr0t4l 2 t3th?", to which i promptly recall and go make a white russian in an attempt to forget it 🙂

so Mu, this is how to enjoy yourself in the tusker land… step on every drain mage you see in your rise to the next level, and help those melee’s out once in a while, cause they keep me alive 🙂

and kindly ignore the numberous "teh"’s

Wi was overcome by emotion while posting, explaining the numerous typos.  😛  Some people proposed solutions to the drain issue on the board…

Good Rant – Answer
by Run  posted 6/26/00 4:05:41 PM


Here’s my solution to the wall-sapper issue:

Make Drain Health line of sight.

That still leaves you open to the kill stealing trick though. However you could do that trick with War Magic and archery as well… if Sarc was getting attacked enough to avoid the exp penalty then she was line of sight enough it wouldn’t have mattered what she was attacking with. Your problem here isn’t life magic.. it’s the fact that ranged attacks in AC are more powerful than melee attacks of an equivelant level. Look at it this way: At LvL 1 a properly made mage with starting equipment will do on average 8-15 with his starting spells (especially since we all know the spell physics that are supposed to make these weaker while everyone is using them is bunk)… a LvL 1 melee can at best do 4-12 IF he gets a crit and he has about 1/4 the attack speed of the mage. I won’t even go into archers…. If they want to balance the game they need to reduce the speed and amount of damage of ranged attacks (and exp too.. but that’s just the pugilist in me talking). They also need to increase the amount of damage axes do, many swords do as much or more damage than most axes and are much faster…. but that’s a whole different rant.


T’ien Lung on Solclaim

Ranged physical attacks (archery) become less potent in the uber-high eBay marketable levels, as melee fighters eventually come into their own (able to actually hit things occasionally) and start attacking faster.  Magic has been overpowered since release, a phenomenon which might have been balanced out if the spell system wasn’t turned into hash by spoilers.  However, nerfing magic would cause lots of whining, lots of people cancelling the accounts they got off their parent’s MasterCards, and poses an untenable scenario for Turbine.  Little tweaks now and then seem to be making small steps towards a balance, but the most obvious solution is to power up the other classes, particularly melee, which has been happening.

Subject:  Exp Whores Fix
Date:  Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:27:23 -0700
From:  "Jonathon"

I was thinking about this problem, and I came to an interesting solution, instead of exp being doled out based on damage alone, why not base it upon attacks inflicted against who and damage dealt by who. So the exp and loot rights would be dealt out to the person who took the most damage and did the most damage combined. Granted there are a few flaws in this, as always, but it would stop the afforementioned draino mages who run up and drain 5 tuskers, if the meleer took all the damage and did 25% of the damage as well. If you can think of any additions to this lemme know, please no flames or "you are a crackwhore nut" messages as I will instantly delete these.

This is disappointing, as it removes my whole "you are a crackwhore nut" strategy of email response, one which I am particularly fond of.  Similar solutions to this were proposed in the rant this referrs to, with various problems that would arise if implemented.

Subject: The Problem With Life Mages…
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 02:39:48 GMT
From: "Dan Hulton"

I recently spent some time discussing Life Magic with my girlfriend and have come up with the following illuminations.  After perusing your web page recently and reading the theories you posted on how to fix the new Life tactic, I decided to tell you my own theory on Life Magic.

Life Magic, as the name implies, should be used for the benefit of recovery, not as a means of attack.  Granted, they should not be left out in the cold, that is why "Harm Other" is there.  The problem lies mainly in the "Drain Health Other" spells.

Life Magic is initally flawed by the "no line of sight" rule.  Get rid of this and you get rid of wall-lickers entirely.  Keep the instant cast-time, to balance out the lack of effectiveness compared to War Spells, but get rid of the line of sight benefits for both the "Harm Other" and "Drain Health Other" spells.

Getting back to the "Drain Health Other" spell, it has come to my attention that this is one confused spell.  Either it is used to grab health off the target for replenishing your own, or it is an attacking spell, made for merely, as it states "Draining Health."  If the latter is true, then it does nothing more than "Harm Other", just on a more efficient scale.  If the _former_ is true, then this spell is hyper-efficient.  No War spell allows you to remove 25% of a target’s hit points, so why should a supposedly restorative spell allow you to do the same?  To remedy this, drop the percentage down to about 5-10%.  That makes it on par with War spells at higher levels, and gets rid of the quick, insane drain that Lifers can pull off.

To sum it up, change both spells to "line of sight", and modify "Drain Health Other" to ~10% of health at 100% efficiency.  Wham, bang.

Please feel free to respond with criticisms.  Okay, a whole lot of life mages will complain, due to losing their only decent offensive spell, but hey – Vagabonds have it worse.

Perhaps I’m just throwing the baby out with the bathwater here.  Let me know.

The whole drain debate as been taking over a number of boards recently (or so I hear, as I try to avoid them).  No doubt people will be pissed if anything about drain is changed, and there are obvious repercussions to any such change.

Removing line of sight is not necessary I think, as the line of sight issue is not the real problem people have with it.  It can be useful too, say if you are in a situation over your head and are stuck in the bottom of a dungeon in one safe spot and no way to slip out.  Drain the monsters to soften them before your mad dash.  Likewise, removing line of sight for drain seems to logically imply that you have to remove line of sight for spells like Heal Other and Revitalize Other, something which seems unfair to the few mages who actually take a support role at times, and drastically curtails group play.

Dropping the percentage of health removed only makes the problem with drain worse:  the fact that it is uneconomical to use drain unless your enemy has LOTS of health/stamina/mana.  As to the fact of nothing else removing 25% of health off the top, war is by far the most effective way of dealing damage to monsters, at least at high circles.  For instance, to kill a tusker guard with life magic might entail drain health/drain health/drain health/drain health/drain health/drain health/drain health/harm other V (several of these), war/life can do the same thing with flame vulnerability V, flame bolt VI, flame bolt VI.

However, something interesting occurred to me… if a drain is seen merely as a replenishing spell, modify the drain to be just that.  You can drain whatever you like, at the rates currently used, up until the point that you are full of health/mana/stamina.  After this it does not work, as the drained attribute has nowhere to go.  I would personally have no problem with this, although drain freaks would certainly protest.

PvP-wise this change removes a number of tactics, such as drains being the bane of archers fighting mages, and the clever yet seldom-used mana drain/drain mana strategy.  It’s an interesting line of thought to pursue.

Actually this is not a bad idea.  It might almost make the power of Life Magic commeasurate with the 12 skill points invested in it.

Some people send in interesting accounts of people who have been "featured" on the page.  Really, in most cases, it’s not specifically about a particular player being a loser, but about a mindset or a game mechanic which allows it to flourish.  But what the hell…

Subject: I read your article on the site about Sarcophagus. I agree 100%.
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:55:03 -0300
From: "Dow, Jim"

I’ve had this player steal umbris from me on the plains. I vulned them and blasted them near dead. She finished them off on me 3-4 times in the space of an hour (2 times in the middle of a huge mob of virindi where she knew I couldn’t go without getting sorted out and looted them before I could claim what was {rightfully} mine). Whoever it is is a huge lamer. I had Abor do the same to me on 2 occasions before he sold his account on eBay. It’s all a big eBay farming game and they don’t care who they upset or tick off to get their "Ph4+ XpZ". 🙁

And now from the handicapped portion of the readership…

Comments on the rant…
by LostSoulz  posted 6/26/00 8:56:43 PM

Ok, You can bitch all you want, and you can say almost anything you want…but you can’t go around talking about my patron. If you want to start something, go pk and fight me and I will show you who is the one who doesn’t have a good character. So just stop bitching and CRYING about every little thing and SHUTUP. If you have a problem with Sarc, come to me about it and I will give ya a good ass whooping. My advise to you is, don’t talk unless you can back it up.

by LostSoulz  posted 6/26/00 9:00:10 PM

If you think mages are so bad-ass, just watch Faze 3 hit a tusker….Characters peak at different times, mages peak early and warriors peak late and i can tell you don’t understand that so I don’t want to waste my time explaning to you…

For those of you who have followed my site, you understand that from time to time I get responses like this from people who are totally illiterate, but this is just incredible.  This "person" apparently hasn’t read past the little bit his tiny tiny brain could interpret as "u said soemtihng bad about my patorn!!!111"  Normally I reply to such attacks with a careful dissection of their post, bringing up facts like I HAVE backed myself up, since this was an exercise in logic and not beating someone’s virtual avatar up in a game which doesn’t make sense from a PvP perspective anyway.  I am sick of this, as retards like this one would not get the point even if they had someone read it to them.  Therefore. I will change levels of discourse so that my point can be made more clear.

FUCK YOU you fucking worthless piece of SHIT!  You are such a clueless asshole!  Try to READ something before you start making a total ASS of yourself by claiming that someone shouldn’t say anything unless they can own you in some worthless piece of shit fight that isn’t even fucking REAL!  And what the fuck is with you defending your patron?  Shouldn’t that go the other way around?  If you want to talk with some people who are into defending their "older" friends, may I suggest you go to this site.  Might as well, since you are no longer allowed to read this one anymore.  Please please, I beg of you, act like this in real life when you reach the age of maturity in about 6 years and find yourself totally alone.  I look forward to you being found blue-faced and DEAD in a welfare hotel room with a plastic bag over your head, your dick in your hand, and a random vegetable lodged firmly in your ass, the latter being the best friend you ever had.

I’m really far too nice.  Anyone remember that guy from Singapore who would occasionally get pissed off at PK’s or thieves in a MMORPG and offer them $5000 if they could hurt/steal from him in real life?  Every time I run into someone like this, I sympathize more and more.  Why is it that stupid people are allowed to consume oxygen which could be going to me?  Apparently it’s illegal to kill them or something.  Please write to your congressman.

bad rant
by Deutha  posted 6/26/00 11:06:09 PM


Just like to say that your description of Sarc is so far from the truth that the only thing i can put it down to is that your jealous that she gives you an asskicking in the tusky dungeon =)

and btw..she has one of the best char designs in the game and doesnt need anyones help when fighting tuskers..specially yours =)

re: bad rant
by LostSoulz  posted 6/27/00 12:10:24 AM

Bah, i still want to kick their ass too!!!!

Come to the Boston Player Gathering, then. 😛  (NT)
by Beau  posted 6/27/00 12:12:19 AM

What the fuck is going on with Deutha and Lostsoulz?  Where was it said that Sarcophagus has a bad design?  It was mentioned as a possibility to explain the bizarre and cheesy drain-off-the-top behavior, not as the primary point.  For those of you too fucking stupid to get it:  THIS RANT WAS ABOUT BEHAVIOR EXHIBITED BY GREEDY LIFE MAGES AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHERS.  This is only reinforced by Deutha’s assertion that "she gives you an asskicking in the tusky dungeon =)".  I am not red.  Sarcophagus is not red.  The only way that one of us could conceivably give the other an "asskicking" is through the exploitation of a game mechanic flaw to the other’s detriment. Sarcophagus happens to be the first one I saw blatantly doing this in an environment where I could clearly observe it, although for sure others since have shown their prowess at this most incredible of gaming skills.  I do not care about someone who is better than I am at a game.  I do not give a shit about having the best design for an imaginary person in a game.  To all those who believe that I am lying because I am jealous of someone’s fucking character design in a game:  Fuck off.  Stupid illiterate mongoloids are no longer allowed to come here.

(For those of you who may feel that I am calling you a stupid illiterate mongoloid, and feel this is unjust, you may substitute the following sentence:  "Stupid illiterate mongoloids and YOU are no longer allowed to come here.")


Subject: The ebay issue in AC
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:15:49 -0500
From: Mark

Read your well-reasoned points in your 6/23 AC rant.  However, I would like to take issue with your categorizing people who purchase AC items on ebay as "mentally handicapped".  Here is the exactly quote:

"No one can possibly explain that somehow the fact that imaginary shit in a video game can be sold to the mentally handicapped is NOT a contributing factor to account hacking"

I bought a character on ebay, and I would like to tell you my reasons.  Several friends began playing AC in beta.  Around January (in retail) I was watching one of those friends play and decided I would like the game.  So I picked up a copy.  At the time all my friends were level 20+.  I work 60 hours a week and found I could play all Saturday and get in about 15 hours a week, at most.  In March my archer turned level 18 (and my mage turned 13).  By then all my friends were 40 and playing in places I still had no business being in.  My character was approximately 3 days old at that time.   My friends characters were all 25+ days old.  I figured out that at my rate of leveling I would probably take at least 10 months to get there, and realistically would probably quit long before that point.  My odd hours and infrequent play made it difficult for me to adventure with anyone I knew and so I hunted alone almost always.

So I went to ebay to look into buying a character.  My friends had spent in excess of 500 hours of real life time getting to their levels.  I found I could BUY a level 45 mage for around $750, which worked out to be $1.50 an hour (the mage was almost a carbon copy of mine, with the exception that this guy picked up lockpick which is quite useless and will prevent him from getting healing until level 65).  Since I earn $30 an hour, it made a lot more sense for me to work three Saturdays (24 hours) and just buy this mage.  I also bought a scintillating gem for $150.  So, please don’t think everyone who buys a game commodity at ebay is mentally handicapped.  If you ask me the mentally handicapped ones are the people who spend entire weekends of their lives camping fragments to accumulate 16 cracked shards and camping shadows to get 16 dark specks.  I would much prefer to be out exploring the game than killing things my archer could take down back at level 18 and were no longer a challenge.

Thanks for your reply, as it it a breath of fresh air after reading so many others which make no sense at all.  😛

As to the issue I was focussed on, i.e. that eBay value on virtual property and identity encourages account hacking and planting trojans to gain access to others’ login information, is unrefuted, although I realize the focus of your mail was not on this.  However, once you think about it and realize that the phenomenon of account/item buying encourages behavior exactly like the behavior you describe near the end of your message, you have to acknowledge that as long as these imaginary things have value, they will be sought after through any means, including the legitimate, the subversive, and the mind-numbingly stupid.  Engaging in eBay commerce for these things only encourages the behavior, and therefore, the danger to all players that comes with it.

As to your particular predicament, there are several solutions I can think of that do not involve eBay commerce:

1) Explain the situation to your friends and ask if they would help you to gain experience and ability so that you might travel with them.  This is not the same as the "twinky trap" I have alluded to in the past, as your character is (presumably) not crippled to the point of requiring twinking for survival.  This is admittedly easier if you happen to be level 1 and are willing to swear to one of your friends’ characters, as then there is a tangible benefit to them as well.

2) Tag along anyway and play the support guy.  This is obviously easier to do with a life/creature/item mage, but is possible with other classes.  I have done this occasionally early on and have found it to be interesting, as I was going places I could not survive on my own, it was challenging to stay alive, and you have some interesting stories to tell.

3) Play solo or find others of your level to hunt with.  This is obviously unsatisfactory to you for whatever reasons, but take into consideration several things.  One, unless you and your party all play at the same time on a regular schedule (which is not the case), the idea of only adventuring when your party is able to do so co-operatively is not easy to realize.  Two, your friends may be predisposed to hunting solo (you’d have to ask them), as many characters who achieve high level find that solo play is the most profitable mode for advancement, in which case the only socializing you would do in the game is while not hunting.  Three, finding others to hunt with may be rewarding if you can find that 1 out of 100 players who is not completely annoying, thereby expanding your circle of friends in game, which is really the only thing that gives these activities longevity.

Mark brings to light something which is a default problem with games which are level-based with no handicapping utility:  the disparaty of levels between groups of friends who might want to play together.  There is no easy solution to this, as giving people a handicap means that levels are worthless, and levelling is one of the primary impetuses for continuing to play.  However, with all of the problems that a real-world money market for these things carries, I cannot advocate such a market as a solution.  It’s like being able to beat the arcade game by spending $500 in quarters to get extra lives, except that in real life people don’t generally hack into your bank account to get your quarters from you.

If any of these solutions do not seem to do the trick for you, you can always email your login and password to a semi-famous game personality who will no doubt be glad to level your character for you.  😛


Thanks and a request for Mr Mu.
by Allerion  posted 6/24/00 12:15:41 AM

Thanks for the flattering reference to my Solclaim character that is using what I refer to as "The Moron Template." He’s coming up on 500 deaths now but is level 37 and no longer sucks. Since he no longer sucks he isn’t nearly as fun to play. Special thanks to Max Longstreet for the 60% yumi he gave me way back when we used to hunt in the same area. (Well he did most of the hunting, I just died a lot. I had a great system of killing a monster halfway, dying, and then running back to finish it off. This resulted in most of my "hunting" looking more like a scooby-doo cartoon with the monsters chasing me back and forth around my lifestone.)

Can you do a rant on those annoying fricking shop campers? Typical example was a level 1 on SC I met today. Their game plan was to beg for some money and make their way to Arwic to camp the shops for good equipment before they went out to kill their first drudge. Four hours later this same person messages me for help getting their level 4 corpse. (Which of course they did not get.) Now normally a level four corpse is no big deal because a level four character doesn’t have anything worth retrieving. I’ve adopted the habit of inscribing everything I sell with insulting remarks. Especially visible items like weapons and shields. What do I get for my efforts? 200 /tells an hour asking me to uninscribe something I OBVIOUSLY inscribed to discourage some idiot from buying it! Just my opinion but I think allowing lowbies to beg and buy their way into level 30+ loot is just as bad as outfitting them in ubergear as their patron. I couldn’t care less about them getting good equipment without ever earning a single piece of it. What kills me is the shop-camper behavior. (Begging, spamming, trying to buy things from the shop and then resell them at a profit by spamming people, trying to scam legitimate adventurers into giving them money or buying things for them from the shop that they say they accidentally sold and can’t buy back.) They just suck all the way around. I never have and never plan to look at what the shop has for sale. Loot doesn’t come from shops, it comes from monsters. If it wasn’t garbage it wouldn’t be in the shop in the first place. Anyway, if you’re ever low on rant material, rip on these garbage-picking people camping the shops in Teth, Wai Jhou and just about every place high level characters go to sell. I just wish you could get trade notes for giving loot you want to be sold and never seen again to the town crier. 🙂

I can’t really complain about people who buy loot at shops that they could more easily get by hunting, as they provide a source of cheap amusement to me.  Aramathia/Airety gave me this idea, and I have used it when excessively bored.  It’s easy!

  • Get something which is intrinsically worthless but valuable, say a 4k ebony yumi with a 33% modifier
  • Cast Hide Value VI on it
  • Sell to a shop where people hang out looking for stuff
  • Listen to people say "ne1 id teh yumi???/", "WHAT MOD ON EBONY YUMI", etc. for a while
  • Wait for shop to reset
  • Listen to people say, "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO", "dman tubrine!!11", etc.

Occasionally someone may buy one of these little gems.  You might encourage this by scribing the item with things like, "I have too many god bows already".  Then later on you can be further amused as people send you angry /tells about your inscription!


Selected forum posts, non-color coded due to a lack of a decent HTML palette…

Fight Club/Time and Entropy
by Max Longstreet  posted 6/23/00 8:27:01 AM

Mu, if your argument were true, I think that Shad would now be about 100 years old. He never leaves that apartment, the ever-expanding filth of which clearly defines it as the place where entropy proceeds at a faster pace than anywhere else in the universe, or at least in New Jersey.

re: Fight Club/Time and Entropy
by Fingolfin  posted 6/23/00 8:02:43 PM

For one thing, remember that entropy of the universe as a whole is always increasing. It is possible for the entropy to decrease in one area and increase in another, generating a net increase in entropy. That does not mean that time is going forwards where entropy is increasing and backwards where entropy is decreasing, having a general forward direction. There is only one direction of time and it is the direction in which entropy for the universe as a whole increases.

Even for star formation, however, I would ‘think’ that the entropy would increase. For one thing, the temperature is increasing. You are decreasing the volume, which would tend to make the gas colder, but you have to increase the pressure to do so. If you take a box of atoms and compress it, the atoms inside are going to start bouncing faster because of more frequent collisions. Higher kinetic energy means higher temperature.

Plus, as you compress atoms very tightly, you are increasing the number of possible energy states. When the atoms are all spread out, there is a uniform energy distribution. All of the atoms lie in their lowest energy level. But as you compress them, some will jump to higher energy levels. Quantum interactions occur at small distances and you have all sorts of new states for the atoms to be in. And isn’t entropy really a measure of the number of possible energy states for some system? If the universe were dead cold, everything would exist in one state. Nothing would move. (zero Kelvin). But with entropy and temperature, things have freedom. They can exist in different quantum and energy states. (Quantum state includes position, I believe.) I wish I could find that definition of entropy! I also wished I had paid more attention in class! Argh.

Fight Club is awesome. The DVD is great. They give you the movie on one disk, and a second disk filled with extras.

Why was Mu building an army? To what end? For what greater good?
In Mu we trusted.


re: Fight Club/Time and Entropy
by Pyreal Mattekar  posted 6/23/00 11:06:34 PM

okay now you guys/girls are getting waaaay too technical for my puny 15 yr old brain to comprehend…for one thing i have never learnt anything about physics except from those video’s of the ponderings of guys like Einstein and Newton and Aristotle…so maybe explain some stuff to me (like the meaning of "entropy" and all those other big fancy words, "libel" and "slanderous" are 2 ones im interested in, and you’ll be doing alot more than my schooling is =))

thanks anyways

Pyreal Mattekar (makes his first post on the Mu Board for "FREAKS" hehehe) =)

English and Modern Physics for Kiddies
by Wi  posted 6/26/00 12:18:55 AM

Slander: when you lie about someone to purposely make them look bad.

Libel: when you write something about someone that makes them look bad. it’s supposed to be printed slander, but people bitch about it even if it’s true.

Entropy: chaos. if you toss a cup off a table, it increases entropy.. i.e. wen it was whole, it had little entropy, when it broke, it had more.  What mu is refering to is the creation of stars, when a star is born, the entropy seems to decrease, which isn’t supposed to be legal… the gravity pulls in hydrogen gas and dust and shit, and makes a star, it would be like the broken cup jumping up off the floor and assembling into a gradfather clock… it’s not something that’s supposed to happen.

Entropy can also be defined as heat unavailable as
by Shi  posted 6/27/00 12:33:03 AM

energy. If one was to measure the amount of heat unavailable as energy in Shad and Dan’s condo, then Max is at least partially correct. The ever expanding filth, the gaseous clouds, and the half-firing synapses have surpassed the amount of useless heat to be found in the aggregate multiverse. Therefore the big bang, and probably the apocalypse, originates in Jersey.

But you all knew that.

Shi, who also invented a verb tense that’s handy to have when time travelling.

re: English and Modern Physics for Kiddies
by Pyreal Mattekar  posted 6/26/00 8:22:12 AM

wow…thanks for the info about this technical stuff..i feel as if i have been enlightened into this debate

and nice reference to the cup…my mind is now fuller thanks to you =)

re: Fight Club/Time and Entropy
by Riprend the Asystole  posted 6/24/00 6:02:52 PM

Got to agree with Fingolfin. The amount of potential energy in a gas cloud is actually decreased when compressed into the star, because you always lose matter in any energy conversion process. Thus, accompanying the decrease in potential energy is the obligatory increase in entropy. In fact, I’m not sure that there’s many functions, if any, that decrease entropy. The only I can think of at the moment is the matter compression of a black hole. Since no energy is expended by the black hole in its compression, it "recovers" potential energy via the compression, although noone’s quite sure where the compressed energy goes…

Riprend the Asystole
KAAOS God of Carnage
Staff Writer,

re: Fight Club/Time and Entropy
by Fire  posted 6/26/00 2:17:31 PM


The current thought in Physics is that black holes do emit radiation (Paradoxical–must mean we are talking about quantum mechanics). As a particle or photon reaches the event horizon of a black hole the uncertainty principle tells us that we can’t know exactly where that particle is–this allows it to interact with matter on the other side of the horizon much the same way that an electron might pass through a perfect insulator if it is thin enough (as it bumps into the insulator it has the possibility of existing on the other side since we can’t pin it down precisely–this is known as tunnelling).

Fight Club was really 2 movies, the first about Anarchy (WWI was started by an Anarchist) and the second about a split personality disorder, and both of them kicked ass.

Fire of MT

Good answers.  The line of thought I was really fixed on was the one in the first line of the rant portion though…

We consider "time" to be objectified for the sake of convenience, even though there can be no definition of "time" which is not recursive/self-determining,

A point that Shad latches onto in these talks is the fact that "time" is a term for the sake of convenience, a way of objectifying something to the purposes of discussion.  The problem happens when the term "time" becomes so widely and commonly used that we objectify it in our minds, thus giving it the qualities and characteristics of an object.  So, therefore, since the phenomena we use to determine what "time" is (an increase in entropy) may seem to be acting oddly within an area of observation, this doesn’t mean that "time" as an absolute is actually behaving in a way that we can predict through the observations of phenomena we think are related.  Does that make any sense?  It’s getting away from the quantum side of the argument and more into the Wittgenstein-esque, but quantum mechanics and the contents of the Tractatus seem hopelessly intermingled by now.

Post any further thoughts on this to the forum, where we struggle to flame pointlessly and occasionally act like we know something.  😛



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